FBI agent, Samuel Hicks, was killed this week in Pittsburghwhile serving an arrest warrant in a botched drug raid. He was 33. After the agent knocked on the suspect’s door and announced his intention, the suspect apparently proceeded to flush his stash of cocaine down the toilet. After the suspect didn’t answer, they were shot by the suspect’s wife when they came through the threshold. The arrest went down using the “knock and announce” tactics and non-SWAT gear that libertarians have long asked for.
For years now libertarians have complained about “excessive force” in drug raids, including SWAT teams’ use of AR-15s and full body armor. Even now, libertarians pretend that drug dealers’ sordid lives are equal in social value as those of FBI agents, blaming the FBI agents for their raid tactics rather than looking at the long string of criminal, illegal choices that led to the suspect’s position on the wrong end of a raid in the first place. I wrote in an earlier entry–an adaptation of which was published in the Washington Post–that not only are police using less force today than in the past, but that the displays of potential force in a typical SWAT raid actually reduce violence compared to alternatives by encouraging submissive behavior by suspects.
The moral compass of libertarians is more than a little off course, and that is why they remain a fringe movement in America’s public life. Even people that recognize police and the state need to be restrained by generous protections for civil liberties do not typically believe that the lifestyles of drug dealers are the reason why; instead, these rights are protected because criminals as a whole act as surrogates for other members of society who may have encounters with police. Undeniable criminals’ civil liberties are respected because innocent people too may be arrested, not because accommodating crooks and allowing them to run wild is an end in itself. The libertarians’ silence on the Hicks’ case as the facts have come out is noteworthy. The pro-drug-dealer libertarians of the CATO Institute make a big show of every mistaken drug raid, while ignoring the many cases of brutal drug dealer violence against police and one another. Libertarians ultimately have a maudlin view of drug dealers, whose “natural rights” to deal crack are somehow being infringed. This is of course a ridiculous position, that makes little account of the rule of law, and ends in the absurd equation of the moral status of violent, greedy drug dealers with that of sworn FBI agents enforcing our democratically enacted laws.
Update and Response: Radley responded at length to my past, as have many commentators below.
One line of argument raised by Radley and many commentators below is that these raids are unnecessary and suspects could be taken on the streets. That may be true and safer in some instances, but I think this sets up a false dichotomy, and I believe some deference is owed to the experienced folks who have to make these decisions under conditions of uncertainty.
Further, the question is not “no knock” raids versus “no raids at all.” It’s “no knock raids” versus “knock and announce raids.” The older tradition of police work was one where suspects had a great deal more fear and thus respect for the police often involved knocking on the door and arresting them without much resistance. This has changed; it’s not controversial to say criminals in general are somewhat more violent and less respectful of police than they were in, say, the 1950s. Where a search warrant is involved, the home is where the evidence is. If the suspect and home are not secured simultaneously, a conviction of someone even for a very violent offense may not happen.
The safety tradeoffs of public arrests versus arrests at home are not obvious either. Felony stops and high speed chases are both notoriously dangerous and endanger the community at large rather than limiting the collateral damage to the drug dealers and their associates (as well as the police, who must take some risks by necessity).
It’s also been suggested that somehow this drug dealer’s wife was some innocent babe in the woods who only cared about protecting her children, as evidenced by the 9-11 call. This paints a ”snapshot” distorted picture of the suspect and his family. Setting aside the possibility that the 9-11 call that Radley was so moved by was a ruse to drum up an alibi, news reports make it clear that she had expensive tastes and was arm-and-arm with her husband in his drug-dealing enterprise. There is a chain of choices that led to this incident. She could have left her man. She could have made an ultimatum and told him to stop dealing drugs. But instead together they took the major risk that they would someday be raided over their drug dealing gig. I’ll even concede that drug dealers run higher risks of “home invasion” robberies, but at the same time they also run the higher risk of police running warrants. If someone busts into my house, I can be 99% sure it’s not the cops. For a drug dealer, maybe it’s a 50-50 proposition. So she can’t just claim complete innocence and surprise that people are busting through her door, and it says a lot about her that she’d put these kids in that position. Home invasions of one sort or another are a risk of the “profession,” and if you tag a cop you should expect to go away a long time.
This line of argument also risks absurdities. It’s not clear why these concerns for suspects’ families should not apply in the case of super-violent criminals. After all, the wives and kids aren’t the serial rapists or bank robbers, right? I guess the people on the freeway or 7-11 parking lot should be put at risk instead.
Finally, there is a persistent attempt to connect these raids exclusively with the drug war. But this is not the case. Warrants pre-exist the Nixon-era “War on Drugs.” Warrants are mentioned in the Constitution’s Fourth Amendment. In fact, in the recent past, these raids were undertaken with fewer civil liberties’ protections in a milieu of much higher police-on-citizen deadly violence. Police tactics evolve, and the SWAT raid has the benefit of overwhelming a suspect and making him psychologically ill disposed to shoot at the cops in a desperate Alamo-style showdown.
The real precipitating driver for the birth of SWAT teams and SWAT tactics were incidents like Charles Whitman’s murders at UT in the 60s and the persistent problem of barricaded suspects in armed robberies. Once that capability is there, however, there is no reason it shouldn’t be used when practical. It’s obviously quite a bit safer for everyone involved to raid a house using a SWAT team as opposed to two plain clothes Narcotics officers using a Remington shotgun. (Watch Serpico sometime to get a sense of the 70s warrant-service flavor.)
I do think a lot of this may come down to optics. After all, the statistics are not on Radley’s side. He says, “And even if all of these raids went down exactly as planned, there’s the broader question of whether the image of armed men dressed as soldiers battering down American citizens’ doors some 40-50,000 per year, mostly for consensual crimes, is one that’s consistent with a free society.” Pace Radley’s point, I find this imagery less disturbing than the imagery of police officers’ funerals. It is appropriate that some risks are taken by police to preserve evidence while also protecting themselves, and in achieving those goals, we should be generous in our grant of means, equipment, and tactical discretion.
It seems elementary, but highly controversial among libertarians, that so long as a law exists, it should be enforced. It would not be appropriate for police to decide not to enforce the drug laws, and, most important of all, there is not a hermetical seal between drug dealers and other criminals. Recidivist drug dealers commit other crimes. Other types of criminals deal and use drugs. On balance, drug crimes permit violent and anti-social people to be locked up for a long time on a relatively easy-to-prove charge. I don’t buy all these guys would be getting masters degrees if drugs were not criminalized. There have always been rackets, and there have always been greedy, law-breaking people. I’d rather they be convicted of an easily proved crime than run around pimping prostitutes or robbing banks or doing God knows what else that would be much harder to obtain convictions on if drugs were legal.
That said, I’ll concede that some good arguments exist to decriminalize certain drugs and reduce mandatory minimums. But the issue of the law’s substance and the tactics used in its enforcement are distinct. Other criminals whether thieves or child porn possessors or vandals could and should be subject to “no knock” warrants when necessary to preserve evidence and when, as here, it’s the safest way to protect the community at large in the arrest of the suspect.
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Thanks. Don’t suppose many will be “agitated” about this.
The only legitimate question remaining for libertarians to debate about SWAT teams, warrant service, and AR-15s, is whether 75 grain Hornady TAP ammo is really a better man stopper.
Normal people may debate those things, GunMonkey, but not libertarians. They have gone from sometimes rational critics of the state to outright idiots, supporting anti-social drug-dealers and other assorted trash. They want the drug dealers to win in a fight with the cops. This is absurd to nearly any one of us, but they still think they deserve a fair hearing and should get to redefine the Republican Party. Unfortunately, a variant of their views, the attempts to oust social conservatives, have some currency among the GOP’s leadership.
What a tragic story and terrible, wasted loss of life.
Allow me three points.
1) If the cops choose to justifiably raid a place, any place and when in possession of a warrant, please use maximum force, same as an invading army. Force and protection. To hell with the libertarian speak, the CATO crowd, the ACLU or anybody else with a half-baked liberties bitch.
2) Having said that, one tangential question becomes gnawing: why the pressing need to arrest this thug on his home turf, at 6:30 Sunday morning and-ESPECIALLY-with kids and a wife in the house?
Bad idea, one begging for trouble.
The FBI and police were obviously watching this dealer for sometime; wouldn’t it have made more sense and been safer to grab him when he was alone or on his way out to his car, to work, to buy drugs?
What genius thought kids, a spouse, drugs, guns and a dope dealer being arrested at once was going to go smoothly?
3) Aren’t the libertarians equally proud of themselves that guns were permitted in the house; i.e., DC v. Heller?
It is a sad thing that an FBI agent was killed in a situation caused by government prohibition. Many drug dealers are your children and others who may occasionally sell a small amount of pot to a friend. I’m not real comfortable with the police swat teams making citizens “submissive”, sounds a little sick. But that’s kinda what the whole swat things about anyway isn’t it.
So you’re opposed to the feds arresting dope dealers who peddle heroin and meth to your kids?
Or are you suggesting that the swat teams and law enforcemment agents ought to be tacticly saying, “please stop selling your dope” as a more balanced and utilitarian constraint?
Either way, Roach was right. You dudes are loony tunes.
You know I don’t think the SWAT teams are targeting small time pot dealers.
[...] Chris Roach notes last week’s drug raid death of FBI agent Sam Hicks, and writes… …”libertarians’ silence on the Hicks’ case as the facts have come out is noteworthy. The pro-drug-dealer libertarians of the CATO [sic] Institute make a big show of every mistaken drug raid, while ignoring the many cases of brutal drug dealer violence against police and one another.” [...]
Or how about, you know, they arrest him as he’s coming or going from work, or after he leaves his house, in a simple, non-violent way, and then more simply secure the house, knock, search (when he’s no longer there to flush the drugs!), bada bing, bada boom.
But then the cops don’t get to get their rocks off by playing soldier.
#7
Well, they sure as hell are targeting people that they incorrectly believe to be small time pot dealers.
“came through the door”? A bit disingenuous, eh?
Where to begin? First, I don’t think that libertarians as a whole are less likely to be saddened at the death of an FBI agent. It’s always tragic when someone is killed.
Second, of course the libertarians don’t rush to their keyboards to denounce the killing of an FBI agent. It’s a given that we don’t want to see it happen. There’s nobody (of consequence) out there in favor of this kind of thing, so there’s no point arguing about it, is there?
But libertarians do get upset about no-knock raids and other “home invasion” tactics gone wrong, because some people do think that it’s a good idea to burst into someone’s home armed to the teeth over a non-violent offense, regardless of the presence of innocents.
Further, since libertarians typically believe that the Drug War is a losing proposition on a par with Prohibition, we can be even more saddened than those who advocate these foolish policies at this waste of a life.
I came here via The Agitator’s link. I think you should understand the Libertarian argument better before you try to refute it. The whole point of being against no-knock raids is that there are better ways to enforce non-violent crimes and better ways to serve the warrants. Libertarians would prefer that you not knock down the door at all, they do not prefer that you knock down the door in a way that endangers the agents. As Radley says, you can arrest most of these people at work where their registered guns aren’t within reach.
Finally, libertarians DO NOT think that the drug dealer lifestyle is equal to that of an FBI agent. They do think that you shouldn’t restrict civil liberties to favor an unnecessarily violent and ineffective way to stop dealers. It’s the structure of our enforcement laws that are in question here, not the moral standing of FBI agents vs dealers.
There was no reason why the cops couldn’t have arrested him at work or when he left his house. The man was not a violent offender, and thus a raid on his house was unnecessary. They would have had many opportunities to nab the guy at their leisure without any risk of harm to themselves or his family.
You should talk to an older cop who worked back before SWAT units became the norm. My dad was one of them. He spent 27 years in law enforcement, and was a firm believer that cops should use every dirty trick at their disposal to avoid violent confrontations. Why? Because cops in his generation had the good sense to know that if you have a shoot out in a residential location, you can send bullets flying into neighbors houses, out into the street and where little kids are playing. You only take that risk when you have a homicidal maniac with hostages or something equally extreme.
It’s sickening that you actually support the use of SWAT units on people who could be easily grabbed off the streets by a few cops working together. People like you are the reason that Waco and Ruby Ridge happened. People like you in the Clinton Administration said “hey, why pick up David Koresch on his way to Wal-Mart when we can extract him by force from his heavily armed compound!”
It’s pretty obvious that the worst kind of drug crime – systemic crime resulting from the illicit trafficking of drugs – would disappear if prohibition was scrapped in lieu of harm reduction strategies. Crop eradication, stiffer sentences, and the 70/30 split in anti-drug funding hasn’t worked. Why not try something that has some proven affect on drug consumption instead of ‘pat-on-the-back’ tough on crime legislation. Then maybe this wouldn’t have happened.
In addition, I hear that Hicks had a full-time job. Why not arrest him when he’s not at home? As a poster above noted, kids, drug, and guns don’t mix. Note, this isn’t to argue that the shooter isn’t culpable – only that as the current system works these kinds of things are hardly surprising. And since the current anti-drug measures don’t work, isn’t it time to actually approach drug abuse in a fashion that has a better chance of working? As we’re finding out, we’re not exactly made of money anymore – ineffective gov’t programs are always bad, no matter your political leaning.
Man, Chris Roach sure is a long-winded gas bag, in addition to being completely wrong.
“Even now, libertarians pretend that drug dealers’ sordid lives are equal in social value as those of FBI agents…”
Yes, I agree. FBI lives are WAY MORE valuable than drug dealers’ lives. That is why when a “drug dealer” is killed it is no big deal (even before they have been proven in court to be a drug dealer.) But when an FBI agent is killed his life is superior and should therefore be mourned.
Also, if you are in the same house as a drug dealer, your life is also inferior to that of the FBI. I also believe that FBI agents lives are more valuable than the homeless, drug addicts, jay walkers, the poor and of course your average non law enforcement citizen.
If there were just some way we could put all those with less valuable lives somewhere far away so that these more important lives could be free to live there lives of moral superiority.
Of course I would never want to get rid of these less valuable lives all together because then the more valuable lives of the FBI would not be able to make money off them through law enforcement, drug wars, prison infrastructure, etc. I mean, it would be foolish for those with more valuable lives to get rid of that CASH COW.
Amen, brothers!
Samuel Hicks is dead because of prohibition. It’s a tragedy, and everyone should mourn his death, but you are using it as a cheap excuse to attack Libertarians with some half-baked justification for more force? If the government listened to Libertarians, and everyone respected others’ rights to liberty and individual sovereignty, this never would have happened, and Samuel Hicks would still be alive. You don’t like drugs, don’t do drugs, tell your kids not to do drugs, tell them all the horror stories you heard in school, but stop trying to force your views on other people at the point of a gun. End prohibition if you value the lives of people on either side of the conflict.
One thing I do respect about Roach, he doesn’t use the moderation option to block dissenting views like some sites.
What a strange article. Is this satire or are you stupid?
He’s stupid.
A number of things in your Washington Post letter were misguided, but among them I thought this statement stood out:
“Serving an arrest warrant is dangerous because it occurs on the home turf of someone who may be facing a long prison term, particularly in the case of drug offenders.”
I hope this isn’t the truth. It would be easier to stomach SWAT raids to apprehend murderers, rapists, robbers, mob enforcerers, even burglars than non-violent consensual drug offenders. Is it really true that the former class of criminal is less dangerous and facing a shorter sentence than the latter?
Radley Balko thoroughly refutes this post here:
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/11/24/it-isnt-about-no-knocks-its-about-home-invasions/
Not that it’s difficult to refute such reflexive, childish, authoritarian rant as this, but Mr. Balko goes above and beyond in responding to such simplistic drivel.
OMG. I visit a Paleo site and there’s libertarian jailbreak.
One word of the FBI and all hell breaks loose.
“They do think that you shouldn’t restrict civil liberties to favor an unnecessarily violent and ineffective way to stop dealers.”
Restrict civil liberties? What liberties? Is there now a constitutional right to peddle crack? Talk about a suicide pact…
Moreover, wasn’t there a gun in the house that the wife used to shoot the FBI agent? You can theoretically thank DC v. Heller for that, my friend, one of those Opps! great libertarian causes.
“Load up, boys. Hannibal ad portas.”
Restrict civil liberties? What liberties? Is there now a constitutional right to peddle crack? Talk about a suicide pact…
Some folks need the government to arbitrarily tell them what they can put into their bodies. And they’re willing to accept deadly violence to enforce these arbitrary decisions. I don’t understand it.
resh, you really are quite the drama queen. i think you need a nice fat joint, and a scotch.
resh,
Where on earth did you get the idea that liberty comes from the Constitution?
Haven’t been to this Website before, but if this is an example of the quality of Republican thought today, it’s easy to see why the party is dead.
Just a suggestion: when you argue against an opponent’s ideas, at least represent them accurately. But I guess that’s impossible to do if you can’t comprehend the ideas intellectually.
Quick, Roach! Shut the place down before someone says something bad about St. Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, M.D, OB-GYN, F.A.C.G., U.S.A.F. (pbuh) and there’s a totally uncontainable Charlie Foxtrot!
Moreover, wasn’t there a gun in the house that the wife used to shoot the FBI agent? You can theoretically thank DC v. Heller for that, my friend, one of those Opps! great libertarian causes.
I take it you’re the token liberal for this website, resh. Only a liberal would wet their pants over a ruling like DC v. Heller that actually tells the federal government to respect the Bill of Rights as the founding fathers wrote it. No conservative or libertarian should be anything less than ecstatic over this ruling.
Put another way, all of your conservative credentials get flushed down the toilet if you think this was a bad ruling aside from it not going far enough to protect the second amendment.
And for the record, I’m more of a conservative than a typical libertarian. That’s what makes me sort of a pariah on Balko’s blog. Meaning, I probably have more in common with Mr. Roach, than Balko on many issues. However, he’s absolutely right that you and Roach completely lack imagination and a sense of police professionalism. Growing up in a law enforcement family, I remember my father telling me how stupid most of these raids are. 99% of them could be avoided if the cops surrounded the guy at a time and place of their choosing outside the home. Few perps are going to resist if they find themselves surrounded by a few cops, aiming guns at them from different angles, making escape futile.
Resh, you said, “Restrict civil liberties? What liberties? Is there now a constitutional right to peddle crack? Talk about a suicide pact…”
Let me help you with this. First, the Constitution does not GRANT civil liberties, it simply enumerates them, and some of our liberties are not enumerated in the Constitution. So let’s agree that there is no “constitutional right to peddle crack”, though some might argue that there is nonetheless a right to put whatever you want into your own body, and by extension a right to buy and sell those subestances.
But the civil liberties we have are designed to protect the American notion that we are innocent until proven guilty. That means that even “crack peddlers” must be treated as every other citizen until they’re PROVEN guilty. Otherwise, everybody is in danger of being treated like the crack peddlers. It’s not about the right to peddle crack, it’s about the right to be secure in one’s home and person, and about due process.
What about the danger of collateral damage to the children and family of the accused (google Alberto Sepulveda)? What about collateral damage possibilities from a shotgun blast penetrating an exterior wall?
Where this argument fails is you seem to assume that the only option for arrest is violent. What you miss is that most of this occurs because the police, not the accused, precipitate the violent action. As has been pointed out — how about stationing two undercover officers outside the suspect’s place of work, and grab him as he walks out? How difficult is that? And even if you walk up to him and arrest him while he’s working, consider this: What are the odds that he’s armed at work, versus the odds that he’s armed at home?
I love these stylized scenarios the libertarians paint. Google “officers shot while arresting suspect” when you get a chance.
Also, shotguns won’t penetrate exterior walls and most department use .223 m4s which also won’t penetrate exterior walls 90% of the time.
Finally, people notice they’re followed and when they deal drugs have guns at their front businesses. They do this because their sainted competition has a bad habit of armed robbing them.
You people need to have a fucking reality check.
(((Finally, people notice they’re followed and when they deal drugs have guns at their front businesses. They do this because their sainted competition has a bad habit of armed robbing them. )))
As opposed to their houses. No one ever breaks into their houses except the police.
Resh – no, not the civil liberty to peddle crack, the civil liberty not to have your home invaded w/o a proper warrant.
Roach – again you’re missing the point. Libertarians realize that drug dealers are willing to shoot suspects. That’s why they argue that we shouldn’t be upping the chances that violence will occur by encouraging SWAT teams to knock down doors in the middle of the night. Your arguments seem to hinge on the assumption that most of these raids are performed on dangerous, dyed-in-the-wool dealers. The one we’re discussing was, but many are not and thus create more violence than they prevent.
I realize you’re very proud of yourself, chalicechick, put please read the post I was responding to. The author, Andrew, said businesses were safer than home b/c the suspects would be unarmed. Now this may be true for most people but is not likely for drug dealers. Of course, no one can ever know for sure in advance, but I think for this argument to be true it must at least pass the smell test. It doesn’t. So if homes and businesses are equally safe/dangerous to raid, and I argue public areas are less safe both from a third party perspective and a losing evidence perspective, of what worth is this frequently repeated but somewhat fanciful libertarian argument?
John, there is no argument about the presence of a warrant here. The question is whether a “no knock” warrant is OK in this instance.
Also, I literally have no idea what your argument is above. Your syntax is messed up. Perhaps it’s 4:20 where you are.
See, Roach, I told you the real debate was about whether Hornady TAP ammo should be used!
I think we can all agree that the Federal Government has the right to tell you what you can put in your own body. The idea that adults can decide these things on their own is subversive.
Roach, you’re still not facing up to the fact that there are many cases where these raids are conducted, where they aren’t necessary. They knew this guy had a day job, and they could have waited for him to get into his car. Had they acted tactically, they could have easily overwhelmed him in that case and prevented him from getting inside without ever battering down the door.
I’m generally a conservative man myself, and agree with Balko that the sight of militarized police forces is disturbing. It would have disturbed our founding fathers who wrote at great length about the dangers to liberty that come from having a militarized presence hanging over a community in the form of a standing army.
It may offend you more to see dead cops, but that’s a risk they are supposed to weigh when taking the job. Our military takes its honor more seriously than most cops do. I doubt you’d ever see a Marine caught dead making statements like “I’ll do whatever it takes to go home tonight” because that attitude carries an inherent thought of “if I have to dishonor the uniform to survive, then so be it.”
I cant belleive that some people have the nerves to come on here and defend drug dealing scum like this. These types need to be stopped!! If the cops would just take people like this around the corner & put a couple rounds into his skull we wouldnt see so many disgusting dealers & addicts & child molesters & other assorted scum!!! Its time to get serious about this trash & start sweeping the streets. In Singapor they know how to deal with their trash, why cant we learn from there example and start doing something effectif about these problems.
Remember, drugs kill, & not just addicts, but innocent kids as well!! How would you like it if someone sold your kids crack?? Just look at what is going on in Mexico!!!
Undoubtedly, Mike T, there are good and bad cops, and good and bad tactical decisions by all cops. But my personal experience is that SWAT cops and FBI agents are some of the most professional cops you’ll typically meet, substantially more well trained than the average patrol cop, and typically more aware of the pros and cons of any given use of force. I stand behind my view expressed in greater detail above about the mixed evidence on tradeoffs with street, work, and highway arrests.
Roach – sorry for the confusing post, and thank you for responding to the flood of Libs on your blog. As someone above said, most bloggers would have blocked all the dissenting posts by now.
What I meant to say is that we are against laws that encourage unnecessary confrontation. If all raids were performed on hardcore crack dealers who deal to kids, we wouldn’t be arguing about this. If the drug laws were specifically targeting violent dealers, we also would not be arguing about this.
But many raids are performed on people who are suspected of growing weed or having small amounts of heroin/cocaine in their home for personal use. When you knock down the doors of people who were never at risk to commit a violent crime, you are creating a dangerous situation where none existed before.
Roach,
Again, there are too many of these unnecessary raids happening, and especially ones that go wrong. I happen to enjoy the protection of one of the most professional police departments in the country, Fairfax County Police, and yet one of their SWAT guys nearly (but should have) got booked for an itchy trigger finger that caused him to shoot an unarmed optometrist walking out his front door in normal business clothes right through the heart, killing him almost instantly. That doctor happened to actually have done some very good work for my in-laws, and was about as far removed from a legitimate target of police attention as they come. You should read up on the Culosi case as it’s practically a case study in why there should be state laws preventing the use of a SWAT unit against people without a personal history of violent crime.
Coming from a law enforcement family, I don’t like seeing the shooting on either side, but if I had to choose, I’d rather see a dead cop when the police target the wrong home than a dead law-abiding citizen with a family. Too often, we have cases of the police doing minimal intelligence gathering before conducting these raids. In general, there is no excuse for them to get them wrong, but somehow they do, and that’s a big part of why I think Balko is generally correct here. Trusting a lot of police with this power is like putting a 9mm in the hands of a small child and sending them out to play with the rest of the neighborhood kids.
You’re free to stand by your experience with police. I’ll defend my own observations and the experience of my family members, especially my father, who worked both as a local cop and a federal agent. As he said about Waco, 9 times out of 10, these raids don’t need to happen because there’s an opportunity for a good cop to catch the crook off guard and nail him without a shoot out or the risk of one.
There’s a world of difference between a “front business” that is run by those peddling in illegal substances (such businesses were popularized by prohibition in the 20s, with both the mafia and the everyday speakeasies having “front businesses” to throw off the cops). (On that note, if you ever have the chance, dine in the wine cellar at the 21 Club in New York City. It’s behind a false wall and was used as a speakeasy in the 1920s. Amazing place).
In this case, there’s no front business. The guy worked a legitimate day-to-day job. There’s no evidence he was selling drugs on that job, so there’s nothing to indicate that he would’ve carried a weapon. It’s likely that nobody who worked with him knew he was a dealer.
For the sake of adding to the discussion, Culosi’s crime that warranted him getting served with a warrant by a SWAT unit was sports gambling on football games at a local bar. Until the vice officer started goading him into higher bets, most of his bets never broke $100. It’s also, apparently (came out during the media reports), standard FPD policy to use a SWAT unit to serve most of the warrants in Fairfax County.
Ho-hum, another drug warrior dead. Now he’s a good FBI agent.
Christiansoldier Says:
“Remember, drugs kill, & not just addicts, but innocent kids as well!! How would you like it if someone sold your kids crack??”
Hopefully I wouldn’t be such an inept moron of a parent to raise kids who are inclined to do things like smoke crack. I don’t think it’s the state’s job to enforce your ideas of morality, or do your parenting for you.
If the use of SWAT for ordinary warrants is escalating violence and the misuse of force as compared to the old fashioned way–regular uniformed and plain clothes detectives serving the warrants either at home or elsewhere–why has the deadly use of force by police declined so precipitously since the 70s?
PS The Culosi incident is a tragedy. The cop involved should be fired or at least disciplined for negligence if nothing else. But my personal experience is that trained SWAT officers are safer with weapons than run-of-the-mill patrol officers who are often incredibly unsafe, as I’ve witnessed numerous times at IDPA competitions and local gun ranges in TX and FL.
Kudos to Roach for allowing this discussion-despite a surfeit of mumbo-jumbo supra that attempts to underscore dope peddling within a wild-eyed libertarian ambit.
I say wild-eyed because it’s fascinating to read logic that tries to legitimate a woman’s use of a gun to “protect her kids,” (assuming that’s even true), while at the same time saying nothing of that same woman as she allows and invites dope to circumnavigate her kid’s living room and homelife.
Priceless.
Still, I can agree that arrests and raids require keen discretion, and often location A is preferred over location B. The back-alley juxtaposed against the school-yard makes the point.
But that issue of proximity is distinct from establishing proper tactics and riot gear once the decision is made to engage the thug or to conduct the raid. Roach makes this point, precisely. He makes it well.
It needs to be made, repeatedly.
Arrest and confrontation in its fruition, by default, ought to extend safety and precaution to the peacemaker, not to the crook. Lose the moral parallel.
No Framer’s intent, no right, no civil liberty, natural or statutory, exists to triumph criminalty when reasonably balanced against stability.
Unless you want anarchy.
Please revise “issue of proximity” to issue of territory.
Regrets.
We need an edit device, Roach
Resh, again, no one is trying to legitimize people dealing coke out of their home to kids. We are saying that there are ways of structuring the laws to minimize the danger to citizens and cops. In this particular raid, the citizens are not sympathetic in the least. But in many, many other raids, a citizen, cop, or pet is killed because police decided to unnecessarily escalate a situation. Proper tactics are often not used – we’re seeing an increased incidence of cops raiding homes of non-violent offenders on unreliable tips from other drug users. Another way of saying this is that fewer cops and citizens will die if we tone down the no-knock raids, and I seriously doubt we’ll see a decrease in social stability if we allow non-violent adults to responsibly use (not abuse!) drugs.
I’m having trouble, Mr. Roach, figuring out what exactly your point is. What does the fact that Mr. Hicks died in this raid say? From my perspective it says that it was a horrible failure that ended in tragedy. Assuming for a moment that the wife fully understood the scene unfolding in front of her, this shows that arresting drug dealers in their homes is dangerous for cops, even when SWAT teams aren’t used. While us libertarians obviously oppose the prohibition of drugs, you’ll have a tough time finding one who won’t admit that there are some dangerous and violent individuals involved in the drug trade.
You seem to be missing the point. Libertarians don’t believe that drug dealers aren’t ever dangerous and wouldn’t ever intentionally harm a cop. What we believe is that when you take an already volatile situation (the arrest of a drug dealer) and add on to that the element of surprising someone in their own home, suspect(s) who have been sleeping, family members and pets, and the fact that these raids often mirror criminal home invasions/robberies, both sides (police and civilian) will suffer unnecessary deaths.
Can you honestly say that there was a greater chance of there being a death (regardless of who’s it is) if they had approached him as he left his house or while he was at work? Really?
The plural of anecdote is not data. Learn to think and argue statistically, my interlocutors.
“The plural of anecdote is not data. Learn to think and argue statistically, my interlocutors.”
If you really lived by that creed, you wouldnt be supporting a drug war to begin with.
Unlike Radley and many of his readers, I don’t give a crap about the armed thug who was shot breaking into someone’s home because the homeowners might have been flushing a substance down a toilet (ie, not violating anyone’s rights). If you willingly join an organization that commits immoral acts, how can you be the innocent victim? My heart goes out to Christina Korbe – if she had done the exact same thing (protected her family and property) to someone who was doing the exact same thing (home invasion) to her, but who wasn’t acting with government sanction, she would still have her freedom and life with her children and husband. Sad.
“Another way of saying this is that fewer cops and citizens will die if we tone down the no-knock raids, and I seriously doubt we’ll see a decrease in social stability if we allow non-violent adults to responsibly use (not abuse!) drugs.”
You see, this is exactly where you’re living in a dream world. Let me ask you something: when is the last time you were in the hood? In the projects?
Cause that’s my backyard.
Drugs abound. They define the place. There-here-is the logical extension of the world you invite. Yes, you invite it. The brothers in the hood, the parents, the sisters, especially the kids-all began as “non-violent” and were capable of this “reasonable” behaviour you ordain.
Except, then came the dope. Like poison. Then the desperation. Then the fights. Then the death. That’s what dope does-it ruins the little Quixotic playground on which you trot.
“Reasonable” drug use that you see on tv or practiced in high school when you and your buddies indulged the bong while skipping ECO-101, well, let’s just say that there are other worlds. “Reasonable” becomes addiction.
Those worlds are playing for real. Dope is the centerpiece of its soul. So it is that arrests must follow, ugly moments arise, and raids need to unfold. Blood is going to flow. Day in, day out.
It would be nice to knock on the door, Mr. Law-Man, and indulge civil liberties. You might even survive doing so for a month. Maybe a year. Someone will even smile.
But your days are numbered in that vein, below the smiles. It’s the way of that world.
2 points -
No “war on (some) drugs” – no dead FBI agent and mother in jail on murder charges.
No “knock and announce” or “no-knock and break-in” – again NO DEAD FBI agent, and NO MOTHER IN JAIL (ergo, arrest him at work or on the street, then go search his house).
For goodness sake! Is it really that hard to understand?
“Except, then came the dope. Like poison. Then the desperation. Then the fights. Then the death. That’s what dope does-it ruins the little Quixotic playground on which you trot.”
U r confusing the effects of drugs with the effects of prohibition against them. Its an easy concept to grasp.
I don’t understand why the F.B.I. was permitted to continue after Janet Edgars cross dressing and Constitutional perversions from COINTELPRO to their Iran Contra or MKULTRA connections. Now raiding drug houses? Stop wrapping yourselves in the plastic Chinese sweatshop made flag while burning the Constitutio
Assemblyman: ‘How DARE They?’ by Jeff Liptonn
Source: Long Beach Herald 06 Nov 2008 (NY)
“The program is very valuable and successful and it should be continued and I’m requesting that the program stay alive.”
Contact: lbeditor@liherald.com * Website
“Casual drug users should be taken out and shot.”
– Daryl Gates – Former LAPD Chief
DAREyl SWAT Gates LAPDog Perversions
Gates contributed a concept and program of historic significance to law enforcement through his creation of the Drug Abuse Resistance Education (DARE) program.
Gates is considered the father of SWAT (Special Weapons And Tactics), which established specialized units dealing with hostage rescue and extreme situations involving armed and dangerous suspects.
“Several generations of high school students have grown up ignoring and disbelieving everything they’ve heard from government and police about drugs, including information that was factual and valid, because they discovered for themselves that most of what has been taught to them was simply not true.”
– Ann Shulgin, PhD,
Therapist and Author, Lafayette, CA,
at the DPF Conference, November 1996
Resh,
The problem with standing on high moral ground is that people get tired of looking up at you.
If you live your life completely devoid of mind altering substances then you are the exception, not the rule.
People, all people, like drugs. Period. There is no refuting that. The war on drugs didn’t start because society was doomed by their use. It evolved from the minds of petty men.
It’s your right to believe whatever you want, but your beliefs and the fervor with which you expel your bile is more dangerous to America than all the cartels in the world.
Resh – As I’ve been saying, if people are violent, then by all means, use the SWAT team on them. if they are dealing to kids, at schools, spilling blood, etc., then throw them in jail. What we are pointing out is that many of these raids do not target these people. Many of these raids are based on bogus information and end in the violent search of a house that is occupied by non-violent people.
I think you should be more careful about assuming that because I disagree with you, I must be naive to the damage that drugs cause. My argument isn’t that they are harmless, it’s that the focus of our enforcement has shifted to methods that violate liberties and do nothing to curb drug violence. That’s a bad combination. I imagine we would be much better at helping the tragic scenes you are describing if we stopped wasting time busting down the doors of non-violent people.
Edintally:
“The problem with standing on high moral ground is that people get tired of looking up at you.”
and then, in the same post..
“It’s your right to believe whatever you want, but your beliefs and the fervor with which you expel your bile is more dangerous to America than all the cartels in the world.”
I like how libertarians disparage the ideas of private virtue and moral stigma, and then act as if their denial of these things is some sort of unassailable, super patriotic virtue in and of itself.
The FBI agents have no more, or no less Constitutional rights than crack whores or the American citizens they kill. Blind US Just Us.
Drugwar Victim Kathryn Johnston, 92 – R.I.P.
They fabricated all the right answers to persuade a magistrate to give them a no-knock search warrant.
By 6 p.m., they had the legal document they needed to break into Kathryn Johnston’s house, and within 40 minutes they were prying off the burglar bars and using a ram to burst through the elderly woman’s front door. It took about two minutes to get inside, which gave Johnston time to retrieve her rusty .38 revolver.
Tesler was at the back door when Junnier, Smith and the other narcotics officers crashed through the front.
Johnston got off one shot, the bullet missing her target and hitting a porch roof. The three narcotics officers answered with 39 bullets.
Anger Spills Over at Killing of Kathryn Johnston
Another drug war victim – Tarika Wilson
On Friday, 26-year-old Tarika Wilson, single mother of six, who was shot twice by SWAT officers in her home and killed. Her one-year-old son was also shot as she held him and will survive. Two dogs were shot and one died.
Drug Cop Lies Sent over 150 to Jail
Signs of Sickness and D.E.Ath
“DEA Success Update: Let’s see. After 20 years of relentless federal Drug War activity, while the price of world-class marijuana has gone from $60 an ounce to $450, the price of quality cocaine has plummeted from $125 a gram to $30, and 30%-pure heroin has dropped from $700 a gram to about $100. Way to go, boys! “
– High Times, April 1995
I have read all the replys to this article and not one person has really addressed the root cause of this tragedy.
Money.
Illegal drugs have the value they do to those who have them and those who want them ONLY because it is a black market. Take away the market, the value plummets with no change in the availability of the products. This will never happen because of one reason.
Money.
Without a drug war to fight there is no reason for the funding. Established law enforcement and incarceration industry will NEVER allow the reason for their immense budgets and increasingly invasive enforcement procedures to be taken away from them.
As for the users and addicts, they will never be any incentive towards treatment. There is NO MONEY to be made in helping people. To the State an addict is a liability, a convict is an asset.
The Drug War is a BUSINESS. The players of this game will never let anyone disturb their status quo. Criminals want their profits, Law Enforcement wants their funding. There’s no incentive to stop.
And so it will go on, and more people will die. More families will be shattered. There will be more violence in our streets, more people incarcerated and no end in sight.
Mr. Roach says:
It seems elementary, but highly controversial among libertarians, that so long as a law exists, it should be enforced.
It seems elementary, but highly controversial among authoritarians and statists, that all government decisions are moral, and therefore, all laws should be enforced.
I take it, Mr. Roach, you would have supported the arrest and punishment of runaway slaves in the 19th century? You would have approved of punishing anyone teaching a slave to read?
Roach,
I won’t disagree with you that SWAT units are more professional in many cases than regular cops, but there are two kinds of SWAT units today: full time and part time. Most are the latter, as they belong to smaller jurisdictions where there is literally no justification for a regular SWAT unit on the local police force. The town my mother lives in has 55,000 people at the peak of its population when college is in session, and they have a SWAT unit. We’re talking about a jurisdiction where there are maybe a half dozen homicides a year. I see no reason why Virginia should tolerate them having such a heavily armed police unit, when they have no case for it all, unlike say, Richmond, Fairfax County, Arlington County or Hampton Roads.
There needs to be very stringent legislation in place governing the regulation of which jurisdictions can have SWAT units. Those that don’t have a bona fide reason based on large scale violence and/or gang presence shouldn’t be allowed to arm their cops like a light infantry unit.
You will also find too that a lot of the places that “need” them have crime problems in no small part because they don’t allow people to exercise their second amendment rights. It should be offensive to any conservative or libertarian that a local government would simultaneously deny gun owner rights to its citizens, while arming its police like they’re preparing for full-blown urban warfare. A jurisdiction that does this has not made the case for why it needs the weapons at all, since it won’t even take the crime stopping measure of allowing its citizens to exercise their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
While we’re at it, I think Resh has a little explaining to do about his squeamishness about Heller vs. DC.
Lot of noise here about SWAT teams’ overkill upon the tepid, unsuspecting criminal.
Did anyone present any actual evidence, i.e., stats or studies-not these stories from grandmom’s local paper-that SWAT teams increase (v. decrease) violence?
If there’s such a rash of recklessness and superflous ruin from SWAT teams, it should be easy to prove, right? So let’s see the data.
I’m happy to stipulate that errors can be made, or that better arrest plans can be considered, if that’s the sum total of the melodramtic point.
As to Heller, Mike, the point is simply that not one of the libertarian posts supra made mention of the wife’s gun in the house and to it being dispositive of the FBI agent’s death. Why is that?
We heard eagerly about the SWAT teams, the raid upon the castle, due process and the silliness of the drug laws.
But nary a peep about the very thing that killed the agent-relaxed gun rights qua the DC Heller ruling that you libertarians thump your chest over.
You got some splain’n to do, Lucy.
As to Heller, Mike, the point is simply that not one of the libertarian posts supra made mention of the wife’s gun in the house and to it being dispositive of the FBI agent’s death. Why is that?
Because no real conservative or libertarian has any problem with people having a gun for self-defense if they are not serving time in prison or demonstrably insane.
Heller was irrelevant here. No one should be disarmed until they are arrested, prosecuted and convicted of a crime.
As do you, since you act like gun control would have played a key part in preventing this, a very liberal position. After your holier than thou claptrap above about living next to the ghetto, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Perhaps the most fundamental disagreement that we have here is that I don’t believe in saving people from themselves. Such is condescending, not kind.
Furthermore, no real conservative or libertarian is in favor of measures to preemptively deny people the right to keep and bear arms on what they might be doing or have done. If they’re that dangerous, keep them locked up or execute them. A society that won’t do it right the first time, is a society that deserves whatever happens the second time.
Just one question-
Would it be so much to ask that law enforcement make a documented showing that a particular individual is dangerous before sending in the SWAT team?
That, in essence, is what libertarians are asking for.
And resh, check out Radley Balko’s work for Cato on the subject. This is literally all there is because police departments don’t keep records on these sorts of things.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
Translation:
-You have zero hard statistical evidence on the overall (mal) performance of SWAT teams in arrest mode;
-you don’t have the balls to admit that the wife’s gun (ownership), which your libertarian view nested, was ultimately used to kill the FBI agent.
And for the record, I do support DC/Heller. How ya’ like them apples.
But I’m not such a frickin’ ideologue that I would try to dodge the elephant in the living room.
If you want to try and make a (now clearly specious) case against SWAT teams and riot gear, and for dope legalization, you’d have more credibility if you’d readily address the DC/Heller consequences in this immediate matter.
Instead, we get the my-conservative-penis-is-more-conservative-than-yours polemic.
Yawn.
By avoiding or subtly deflecting the topic (and now-obvious downside) of the right to own guns, you make that downside and the weakness of your case all the more conspicuous, along with your anti-government, knee-jerk fundamentalism.
I should add that this “but for” causation argument is kind of silly. If we didn’t enforce laws against more serious crimes, we’d never have barricaded suspects and shot cops (and bystanders) too. If we have laws, if we mean for them to be enforced, and if their enforcement requires evidence, then we must weigh these important goals against the risks. There is no world without risks and tradeoffs.
If the drug dealer in question never dealt drugs or if his wife cared more about her kids health and safety than the Benjamins, she’d not be in the predicament she was in either. In a world where drugs are illegal and those laws are enforced, anyone breaking them risks this outcome for themselves, their family members, and any law enforcement on the other side. You can’t just put all the blame on the laws and their enforcers.
Finally, google “felony stop officer shot” or “officer shot traffic stop” or “suspect shot arrested parking lot” and notice how many hundreds of thousands of stories come up. It’s not like this fanciful alternative of is a real one, and this sets aside the risk to convictions and evidence if it were honestly pursued.
Bummer, too bad the laws are unconstitutional
Where’s the amdt for “street drugs” like there was for alcohol? If it’s such a wonderful cause then the amdt would pass in a heartbeat.
@Resh
Your writing is terrible. You frequently misuse words and misplace punctuation. It’s as if you think a thesaurus can cover up the fact that you are an idiot. I take comfort in seeing that most of the intelligent comments in response to yours are well-written. For your sake, I hope that “edit device” becomes available soon, lest your obviously weak grasp on grammar, syntax and vocabulary weaken your future arguments.
[...] on the Internet, Paleoconservative Chris Roach groused — pointedly referring to Radley Balko’s long-standing and influential criticism of [...]
First of all don’t assume the agents announced who they were. They lie through their teeth. Most likely thre wife was scared shitless after seeing armed (without badges and wearing blaclk masks) ninjas outside her apartment, and was justified in the shooting. You can generally tell a cop is lying when his/her lips are moving.
[...] The Disoriented Middle Class [...]